2.3 DPS?

Good god there isnt a faceplam big enough for this post

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?

How do you figure BS DPS at BS Range....the Raven can hit for 728 dps @ 227 km....not quite understanding that statement...

Also, stop using officer BCS and +6 implants to skew the numbers.....it's 631 with tech II BCS...

Dude...I've got it up on EFT right now....let's see the fit....Obviously then you are rigging for damage and sacrificing a lot of tank

4 BCS, 6 Launchers with Scourge Fury....added a tech 1 loading accel rig and warhead cat rig, and turned of include reload time...still only getting 686....EFT v 2.16...

Then just need to revamp missile mechanics to be in line with guns. That will solve everything.

not that i want that, but your point about the teleporting thingy...

Ask the projectils or hybrid charges how they do it all day long in EVE

The only "nearly" instant-hit weaponsystem, from that point of view, would be the lazors

cu

The New tracking disruptors however will. Imagine a significant reduction in range or tracking reduction against missiles and turrets. All you need is a single module and can change scripts on the fly to affect all dps ships in the game.

Those systems don't bring speed even remotely close to insta-hitting target from 200km. If you assume that they are SO advanced to achieve speed like 1000km/s that I can assume that Caldari missiles are SO advanced that can do magic things too. Also artillery is not based on Railgun/Coilgun.

There is a problem with your logic
When you nerf ship A and B
Ship C and D will be used more until a amazing inventive fit blows all others away just like drakes and hurricanes have always been fitted

Then you see ship c and d being flown more and more then the ships A and B you just nerfed

No. The speed of sound is 343.2 metres per second so 7x(Speed of Sound) is 2402,4 metres per second or 2.4km. Even 70x speed of sound would mean 8.3 seconds delay before hitting at 200km.

In addition to the missile nerf CCP will also bring an AI boost for NPC's in missions. These NPC's will switch targets. At the first look it seems to be a good idea. At the second look it is a typical darft idea from CCP. Mission "Buzz Kill" and "Stop The Thief" are just two of more missions where every pilot will have problems with his drones. (ELITE) Frigs are at 65km+ at the beginning, you start your drones but they will be destroyed before they reach the enemy frigate. If you call back your drones they are to far away to reach your ship befor they are destroyed. What have we than? A scrambled ship without drones and less damage with missiles or more damage with the stupid TE+TC but horrible less tank. Good job CCP.

... which I have to train from beginning with 0 SP.
Too much work and especially TIME/MONEY to reach the exact same goal with another race what I have compared now with caldari.
Does someone even read ALL of the posted text? It seems that a few people just read
"Missile.. Stop The Thief.. Quit" and than present another worthless option to compensate a nerf of 4.5 years of skillset.

With TD and defenders in my missions? With a switching NPC's who kills my drones and leave my ship scrambled allone?
To compensate this TD-crap I have to weaken my tank to use TC or TE. No thanks.
Why do you think that the rest of the caldari ships will get a boost? TD will affect ALL missiles. And to counter against this crap I have to reduce my tank massively.

So please explain.. WHY will the "Raven, CNR, Navy Scorp and Golem will become much better for PvE than now"? Not just claiming.. deliver facts please.

5. They have the most range of any medium weapon.

With Navy ammo, yes.
However, 250mm rail II's with spike ammo is right there next to it.
Now, the tengu does make the rane insane and damn good dps at that range, but we all know the tengu is OP.
Now, with a 25% range nerf, the tengu will be fairly well balanced as far as range, but the drake will have less range than any other tier 2 bc with med LR turrets and ammo even with navy missiles.

uh, sorry, i'm not sure which thread i read this, but if i recall correctly there is the idea of changing the kin bonuses on caldari ships to a rof bonus - which i see as a good thing because it allows them to use all their availiable missle types - but still, it could have been replaced with a dmg bonus instead to the same effect.

And the Naga can get 750 at 86k so should we nerf it cause it gets 100 more dps at 10k longer?

Down with diversity and using different strategies!

apart from at the edge of HML-range (and thats not the one which people always quote here, and you know that too ;) ) HML deal ZERO DPS, and turrets dont.

How many remote tracking link/Sebo alts am I allowed to use?

I would like to see my Drake can fit an armor tank like a Cane, be still pretty fast, have a full rack of weapons and 2 medium neuts, and a much bigger dronebay. Your "argument" completely misses the point.

To be fair those are nigh on useless.

You kill one battleship with a 100 people that launched ....not hit mind you....just launched and you generated 100 kills. This is why Zealot is on there NC. are using them against GSF and co.

And please be honest - do you really feel Drakes like this one are what ruins EVE? What I felt is, people are more concerned about "standard" PvP fitted roaming gang Drakes, which use HML just because HAMs are so poor in range and application.

Quoted for truth. And all those no-brainers who still say fly Rokh/Blackbird/Scorpion/Basilisk should maybe read the words "race-¦s signature weapon" again and try to understand. We dont want to be the "just jamming you and do some shield transfer to my friends"-only guys. We want to use missiles in PvP with success, and gladly with another ship than the Drake, Raven for example. Even NH would be ok, but its not. It just sucks as it is now for PvP, and this even when its using HML!

A mission fit with 25km optimal with longest range ammo and no prop mod? I see what you did there ..

And 70km faloff, almost always fited with prop module and has best movement speed/agility in class. Oh and selectable damage type. Which proves that speed and range are actually important in L4.

seriously raven and navy raven being viable ? even with 2 bill of ship and navy/DED mods the cnr or raven is nowere near good enough for lvl 4's even with a full rack of med drones and t1 ammo due to explosive radius the raven is barely over 700 dps (with implants)

on top of that if you deploy drones on certian maps you will get full room agrro you need mission specific tank and now tds will also bugger missle ships on top of any jams that can an generaly do cripple ships in missions.

You cannot compare lasors to cruise missiles. You just cant. Because lasors are 10 times better.Try to shoot low sig faction cruiser with cruise missiles and you know why.

For example lvl4 buzzkill mission with cnr. And you know why. But guess its easy to talk when you never tried to use cruise raven yourself.

Now, when it comes to overheating the tanks.

This is almost meaningless because both ships can overheat their tank.

However, you can't overheat rigs, shield power relays/fux coils, or shield extenders. Only resistance modules.

However, the Hurricane using an active repper/booster will be able to get more tank boost through overheating than a drake will get.

They are weaker than lr med turrets on ranges below around 35 km

Whilst you are correct, that status quo already exists for turret users and I DO see them tearing stuff up. It's called WINmatar for a reason.

In any event, I was referring to missiles across the board with that comment, not HML, in context of the global weakening of missile boats the TD change enforces. Missile users other than heavy are pretty damned thin on the ground in the PvP scene.

They're going to HAVE to fit a TC/TE or lose DPS. If they fit TC/TE, they WILL lose EHP.

The introduction of TD affecting all missiles (even going to far as to affect unguided when the rigs dont work on them) is a direct and immediate reduction in combat effectiveness to ALL missile hulls.

I say from the point of view of missile boats being hugely underwhelming (aside from the two problem children): Why do missile boats need weakened at ALL?.

It's not a direct buff, it's a compromise which would involve a loss of tank to do it on these hulls. That's an ok principle: more gank, less tank

However - those hulls are directly and clearly weakened by the HM changes already, there is no reason to lump TD effects on all other boats.


One more time for luck: Why are we reducing the combat effectiveness of already recognised weak hulls across the board? to what point or purpose? So they can spend 6 months even weaker before a rebalance puts them back to where they are today a-la the caracal?

i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all.

Jorma, they say "there are 2 problem hulls", meaning Drake and Tengu needs a rebalance, then they go on and say that the bonus is ****** because you only get a bonus to kinetic.....

Now tell me why EVERY OTHER MISSILE BOAT needs to contend with a nerf to effectiveness? Other than the two dodgy hulls, missile boats are - bluntly - a running joke.

It is different in PvE, of course, but those rats are not going to affect missioners with the TD so again....are non heavy missile, missile users REALLY that powerful we need to reduce their power PRIOR to a hull rebalance in PvP? Are ravens so tough? are the rooks overruning the forge? Perhaps the kestral is popping one too many rifters?

Set aside the two bad HML hulls and tell me why weapon systems that, with one exception being torps, don't even make the kill boards need reducing in power...

Look at the top 20 kills, top 20 weapon kills....put aside the busted and to be addressed HML hulls....do you see ANYTHING that suggests missiles boats are in need of a power reduction?

Um, I said missile platforms should get a buff, which they are getting, both in the form of hull rebalance, and TE/TC affecting missiles....

The TC/TE is a decent PvE buff, no mistake, but in PvP...it's a flat out nerf. There are no (non HML) hulls with slots to spare and (afaik) no hulls with stupid ass tanks - drake-gu aside again.

Edit: @Jorma I already mentioned in this thread that the SNI has the potential to be a mission beast, not sure about he raven, don't think it can spare the slots too easily, maybe one low, I've not checked extensively.

I agree, but can't work out why the TD needs doing now - unless its reaction to a backhanded PvE buff...which as I say would be a bit weird.

Of course, if its a separate module, then my concern can be considered addressed as we're back to rock, paper scissors modules and not "fit this or die"

Maybe, but the why do it at all is still a mystery.

I still dont see a reason to let TD work on missile and not give missile in the same time instant damage and falloff and wreckings. Apart from that, if missiles should be affected, some missile-skills should be needed to use a TD too ;)

Thats chicken & egg though - why introduce either?

Doesn't need to be that specifically, get the hulls competitive first (however you do it), then add more dynamics to it.

Most missile boats are not great today, making them weaker today in anticpation of a balance patch/xpack 6/12/18 months away is not really the way to go, imo.

Imagine if, instead of buffing hybrids when they did, they instead made them worse with plans to buff the hulls a year later...

Make the Golem on par with the Vargur and I wont complain about that specific loss, but for others it might suck.

Why is it OP if the Golem can do what the Vargur can? That would mean the Vargur is OP then, right? :) I think it would be balance, if Caldari could do with missiles what Winmatar can do atm with projectiles . But yeah, as Winmatar it maybe feels wrong when others have the same like you have.

I never said I want the speed of a Mach for the Golem, nor did I say I want to be able to deal 1.1k DPS at 70km, nor did I say instantly hitting Torps (although its funny you say it would be OP to demand them ..), nor Vargurs tank as it is, nor Apocs Cap.

Was not me, so get your facts straight. I said, I want the Golem/Torpfitted to be able to perform as well as a Vargur/ACfitted in missions l4. And thats not too much to ask for, but just balance, no? Apart from that, I would also like to see at least one missile ship (and it may be pirate faction, ofc) be able to perform as well as a Machariel, in missions and PvP. Too much? I think not.

Thats what I really hate here - people say "you have to accept Drake is OP blablabla, thats why it needs to be nerfed" and in the same time deny, that there are other OP platforms (for years now) and if Caldari want a competitive ship they get told "adapt or die". No. Either we keep our so called OPs and you do too, or it gets levelled for all. Not just nerfbat to Drake and Winmatar-Opness should go on.

And yes, I did exactly this: I said many times I accept a trade of so called OP ships. If Winmatar get in line with the rest (or the other way round) I gladly accept the Drake to be in line in long range battles with its peers. I would expect it will be in line close range too, though.

I personally dont think, this is balanced. But if you want to nerf Drake, then nerf all those working other ships too, so every race will have options in every class. And no, killing a ship first and then maybe buff another one some time later is not an option for me.

I tell you something, even if there was one, their BS would suck in comparison to the Mach, just because large AC are so OP. The Mach just shows how OP AC really are, but in PvE the Vargur is not much behind.

What do you want to say with that statement? While I agree the Apoc has a nice range with its lasers (Pulse same as Beams/Tachys ..), I dont feel it is OP in game to a degree there is nothing which can counter it, beat it in PvE or whatever. So pls make a statement which I can understand.

For instance, turret boats would be geatly assisted if TEs were mid slot accessible because they're better than tracking computers.

Mare can insta Alpha small stuff which a Golem never can (below BC-size it can never Alpha anything, and it will never insta-hit either).

The Mare is so strong because it can fit oversized Lasers without issues (Tachyons)

With T1 missiles? and wihout imps? Lol . BalComp-s are not increase range, If you use rigs - artillary has rigs too. Targeting range of Drake at 5 is 75. But no 80 and of course is not 100.

Artillary and railguns has ammo with hight distance (1.2, 1.5, 1.8, range multiplier) and not so good damage

Oh and here's a fun eft exercize for Drake addicts. Try getting a mwd, 7 heavy beam II, and an 800 plate onto the current Harbinger and having it even with falloff touching 100km. Since one of the recent posts I read did not seem to understand the grid penalty cost of range rigs for guns, and seemed to think the 80% range bonus with tech II ammo was all that. Also, try giving it some tank, and oh note your dps at that range. Have fun.

Now, wasnt it an almost pure winmatar fleet that won?

How so? Drake all l5 except BC, which I set on 0 manually to get the res bonus away will have a bit below 83k EHP with 2 invul, 2 LSE, 3 extender rigs and a DC II. Thats not a small number, agreed, but less than 90k and over 20k less than a HG Slaved Harby ..

Yes. You see he's telling Gypsio that HAM Drakes suck against the ubiquitous HG slaved Harby You missed that he's batshit crazy and see all his enemies sporting HG slave clones in Harbingers when fighting his main . .

ah, that is assuming he has a main that pvps somewhere because it seems he'd rather use an npc corp posting alt on the forums here with no combat record, at all, ever.

But you know he could be right about HG Slaved Harbingers everywhere, because those sets are so cheap. And of course those folks are soloing C3s in ships other than Tengus making tons of isk with which to fight in HG slaved and presumably also pimped Harbys in high and low sec . . with all the money they are making with ships other than tengus in wormholes . . .

lol, that would be a terrible terrible ship..

Medium AC are better than every other msr weapon.

In my opinion the nerfing is a bit toooo much. The nerf hits one area way too hard which makes flying a Drake pretty much useless in Wormholes / missions and what ever else the Drake is used for next to PvP.

It's too much... Take another look CCP...

other cruisers have the advantage of hitting stuff for full damage when it's not under their guns. they also have falloff. opst nerf, heavy missiles will hit frigates like a wet noodle, no matter how good a pilot you are.

How so?

Actually I'd be inclined to suggest that (today) it is more to do with the really, really harsh fitting requirements for HAMS compared to HML. You need stupidlyreally high skills to realistically fit HAMS (assuming no stupid money poured into meta items)

A 425mm rail Talos with 2 TEs, 2 Mag IIs, and collision and burst rigs pushes 892 dps @ 47km+49km w/ CNAM or 517 dps @ 168km +49km with spike. It's not going to "insta pop" buffered frigates at range, but it will shred them within seconds.

Basically I agree with you here - there has to be something which is better, and something which is worse if we dont do all the same. My concerns (and those of others) for those changes which are planned are though, that missile will not be on the better end anywhere afterwards, bt instead be always a worse choice than guns. Atm missiles are fine for one thing, and worse for all others. This one thing which they are fine at (speaking of meds and larges!) is what should get nerfed according to CCP.

Although I would like to see a more balanced Eve in the end, I fear they mess it up somewhere in between. :)

this could be adressed by changing medium long range turrets, and or adjusting some things for HML .. for example long range t2 ammo with less DPS for HML, so in the end there would be 2 range-windows which favour HML (for example 35-50 and then 65-80 or so) and the others are better for turrets. Not sure if this is viable or not.

...

Drake nullsec blobs could be solved by fixing CMs and Ravens for PvP - something which will hopefully happen anyway. Atm there seems to be a quite popular counter to Drakes in nullsec anyway, and everywhere else except in PvE the Drake is not OP.

third: name the Caldari missile PvP ships please which are a viable alternative atm in above frig size PvP.

Raven.......

I'm going with LOLWUT on that one.

PoS bashing isn't my typical "PvP" vision tbh

I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back

What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.

Ofc one has to look for roles. But just ECM/Logi/fleet sniper with Nagas/Rokhs is not enough for me as Caldari. And its so poor in comparison to what others can do. :)

Those 2 ships are not breaking the game IMO, they are just good in a role

The point is .. these ships do need work for a far longer time than Drakes in nullsec were even a thing to consider ... but yeah, I will just rest toons and use others. Like I said, its nothing personal for me - if ship x would be the only real option for race y and it would get nerfed I would post here too.

If you are talking about Heavy Missiles, how is it possible that this weapon is so overpowered and yet the majority of hulls fitting it are considered so broken as to be unusable? And further, why would you say that it far outclasses its competetors when, in fact, it's competetors apply their damage instantly, and offer higher dps at close ranges.

Fix HML when other stuff is there and working, and no one will complain.

edit- And I love the constant deflection saying "but but the Cane is really the op ship," meanwhile totally ignoring the fact that in the OP the Cane GOT NERFED DIRECTLY. You've now got nothing to deflect attention to, oh no!

Then move on to other Caldari ships. Fix their Battleships, fix their HACs and Command Ships

Exactly. OT Smithers is right, again. Give those over 9000 broken hulls a viable working role, one which others would love to take. And you will see how the Drake is no issue at all anymore (and if it still is, then there *is* an alternative route for Caldari pilots, which does not mean "crosstrain!"). Ofc it would be best to have a role for every single hull in game, but I agree this is maybe not so easy to do. But at least some more than just *one* tech 1 hull above frig size would suit a professional company well.

Why should they be inferior? And you wont deny when you look at just tech 1 missile hulls above frig they *ARE* inferior atm.

Ferox is not first choice for most things

I wtf pwned others with my AC Canes, and I made kills with other ships as well. I never said the Drake is sh*t. What I said is, right now it has a role (although that role is not as big as some claim it is), but it wont after those planned changes. OT Smithers just said it right - dont screw Caldari *again*.

1) Its been posted over and over again that there are range windows for MEDIUM long range weapons where HML is NOT best but worst in DPS.

Imagine the Nado would get all missile hardpoints (Minmatar are mixed Projectiles/Missiles, right?). Would you guys enjoy this? In fact, the Nado should have gotten 4/4 ... that was the concept for Minmatar, long time ago.

Caldari are not the race with the built in "i wtf pwn because i am so fast" button.

- why should they be OP when there are range windows where they can and will get outdamaged by MEDIUM SIZE LONG RANGE TURRETS?

Because in shorter ranges all of its weaks compared to the other battlecruisers count so much more, so for example the smaller drone bay ...

No one said they should. You should really learn to read and not to see things which are not there.

When you compare short range fighing abilities of BCs you have to count the drone capacity and bandwith too, a Harbinger for example could fit a flight of lights AND a flight of light ECM drones .. or all medium ECM or all medium combat .. this is a big advantage over a Drake. So if you just look at primary weapons DPS and EHP of the ship you dont get whats going on in game, and for short range this is even more so.

If you dont understand this concept then just go on to ask. But stop to imply things into my statements which I never said.

Btw, talking about credibility .. where is *your* actual combat record?

the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.

But you forget Noemi has proven with his own eyes (from Jita) that Drakes aren't used in lowsec, only Canes. So you see you are clearly wrong because Noemi's eyes record those facts for all of us. No getting around it.

Yes. They are the only weapon system in this list too which can be used with success by Caldari medium and large missile hulls. So an entire races signature weapon type is represented by HML. Hence the numbers. Care to do the addition for the gunnery pendants? Just take numbers of place 2 and 4 or 3 and 5 together, and you end up with significant more lasers and projectiles than HML, and that was just rank 2-5 ... so no, I dont think HML are a problem, the complete absence of t2 Torps and CM is a problem, same with HAMs. But you cant blame HML for the crappy performance of the other medium and large missile systems.

Cerberus would be there also a lot more if it wouldnt suck so hard

And don't forget that HAMs take much more PG than HMs. You need RCU to fit them.

The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.

Same would apply to a Pulse II Harbinger btw, it will rip a HML Drake to pieces if it gets close enough.

Some of them - accepted. Caldari logis and Caldari ECM are decent. Caldari frigs are ok too. Naga and Rokh seem to be pretty popular, but never thought one would actually crosstrain for them. And dont forget ... they are gunnery ships, and whats the main point about this all? Caldari Missile PvP. So ..

Where is the link for your combat alt? Go play EFT again Jorma.

Ok lets go with cane arty thebn still far supirior to drakes current lmedium range dp output.

Just again - imagine how you would feel if for example all atm working medium and large projectiles would be nerfed, and in exchange you get some minor adjustment to stuff which is no real issue right now. How would that feel? :)

I am saying that since I am a quite new player who has picked up Caldari, shield tanking and heavy missiles as primary...

Finally after 6 months of training ships tree, shields, missiles I have reach my Nighthawk !...

They're ******* aggro too. and drones. people like me that have **** gunnery and great drone skills are ******. as the rats will aggro my drones meaning i can's mission and will leave eve.

Large long range: gunnery wins (and gunnery wins there by a margin you dont even see missiles at all)

Statements like that of Ravens outranging Nagas in theory show very well you have not much clue of whats going on.

I would LOVE this as an option. I've got a whole lot of SP invested into broken hulls and weapons, and despite all the non-Caldari pilots (as usual) assuring us that everything is just fine, I have absolutely no faith that CCP even being interested in balance. If they are, I damn sure haven't seen it.

You seem to be the only one who is claiming Caldari dominate PvE atm. A Vargur and esp. a Machariel will wipe the floor in missions with every Caldari ship.

Post your combat alt. Thanks.

The relevance of your video is as big as your combat record Jorma ..

True. Still that doesnt change anything about what I said. Machariels and Vargurs are way better in missions than any Caldari ship now, and the advantage will even be bigger than now after the HML nerf. So to claim Caldari are still the PvE race is just not true. Agreed on that or not?

I don't know about the Legion and Proteus, but the Loki blows through level 4's e4ffortlessly. I did some a couple weeks ago just to see if they were as horrible as I remember (they were) and I used a Loki. It was, to put it mildly, unreal. If you care, message me tomorrow and I will send you the fit I used. It's probably not ideal (I only did maybe ten or so missions) but it worked for me.

Oh and there is one main skill and one special to every type of weapon, turrets or missiles. Even multipliers are same...

and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships

Please post your combat alt as well as Eve Kill does not have any stats on you

Btw, I never said GMP applying to Torps, HAMs and Rockets is bad. I said they will IMO need more than that to actually perform well in the ships Caldari have.

Is, in your opinion, using HAMs, Torps (in BS) and Cruises atm a viable way if you want to be competitive in PvP?

To be fair, I said before the only viable Torp BS atm is the Phoon, although I dont think its actually great because of the Torps, but because the rest is so good even with Torps it does not suck. But ok, I can accept the Phoon answer. As will everyone hopefully accept the fact the Phoon is not exactly a Caldari ship.

The only ship which might be working could be the HAM Tengu, not really sure about that one. Can use it, so maybe will give it a try. But should that be the way to go, making a t3 the only working missile ship in med and large size? :)

Also, you tell me, does that sound like Noemi?

I'm not seeing much evidence that many are taking advantage of their destructibility, at least in PvP. Also the Ewar changes aren't coming this winter.

I know webs, I know TPs.

You still never had pointed what the problem of HAM and Torp was beside damage application. Maybe there is not any other problem ?

Maybe you are lazy, but maybe you don't know because you don't even understand how your weapon system work, or maybe you are wrong ? Maybe you are that stupid ? Who knows if you don't want to talk...

wrong again, and so easy to see for anyone who cares to read my postings here.

While you two clowns (one with no clue at all and the other with no Caldari or missile experience apart from being killed by them) go on with your really valuable posting, I still hope some others get it :)

Standard and faction ammo has been severly nerfed (less damage, less range, bigger exp. radius) in hitting smaller stuff.

Yep you are right there .. he is just a Gallentean only, forgive him his lack of insight. What I find a bit disturbing though is his attitude .. he should really listen to people who actually skilled and used missiles IMO. Like all those other guys who fail to see how those changes are NOT a buff to precision like they think, but just a minor change which will not help to bring a now not so hot system to life. Best part is the "explosion radius has been buffed!!" thing .. OMG.

Actually, HMLs are equivalent to medium weapon systems and cruise/torps - to large.
You don't hit frig size with MPLs or what?

One may note that you don't use T2 close range ammo on smaller stuff either unless you have a huginn buddy webbing it down for you

Yeah, those turrets that can hit any class ship for ~ full damage when webs/painters are used... regardless of size... or when traversal is low....

and very short range

Yeah, and you could fit 2 more HML to the Canes highslots and end up with 490 DPS (RF EMP + Fury HML)

With two launchers, the cane don't have less tank than the drake, it have no tank at all. And you can put a third BCS on the drake to outdps the cane.

26kehp is less than a T1 cruiser...

Drake, with 3 BCS. Normally you end up with some CPU-issues if you want to stick with t2 in Drakes and take 3 damage mods

My god, why do Draek theads always end up as fitting advice to uncreative Drake pilots?

That fitting of yours would die in fire vs the Cane of mine :) like I said, will do the test soon enough and fraps it too :)

I want to see a HML drake do damage instantaneously....

I want to see it do nearly 600 dps in close.....

Dude, read the whole quote

Right now in med/large hulls Caldari missile PvP has this one option

For the railboats I didnt object. But matter of fact is many Caldari dont have gunnery skills, since the options they had (hybrids) used to suck for a long time and got buffed not so long ago. If a Caldari will go gunnery, then he is smart and just goes Winmatar anyway. You forgot the Naga, which is far more important than the Ferox btw.

I rather suspect the answer to this has it's roots in the fact hybrids were utterly godawful for years.

I remember back in my rookie days on the newbie help channel being advised to stay well clear of them as they were so bad (was sound advice at the time) and the only way to go as a new caldari pilot was missiles (unless one had a penchant for regular pod viewing).


You have that status quo for years and the only advice going down the line is use missiles, sure eventually people will cross train but I'm in no way surprised about the crop of (H?)ML indoctrinated pilots coming through the ranks.

Sure, there are a bunch of technical (and valid) reasons why missiles are a good move but really the biggest catalyst for pushing most pilots in that direction was almost certainly down to hybrids being utterly awful. And that started probably before the tengu even was born.

That situation has changed, but it'll take a long time for that to filter down. Plus it does take a good while to train gunnery up if you've not really used it before which as mentioned, a load of caldari pilots will not have.

(same with the damage/rof supports where turrets have the higher value)

and balanced around the skills then. It would be easier to understand and fair on every skill level - unlike now, where turrets have a damage problem with lower skills and missiles a range problem.

And in any case, when someone cross-trains into direct fire weapons they damn sure aren't sticking with Caldari anyway. Who in their right mind would.

Gallente/Hybrid

Gallentean pilots dont have any working medium and large hulls with hybrids . . .

EDIT:
Ok, maybe the Talos . . . but really thats it . . . including serpentis faction ships . . . none of them can ever get in range . . . ever!

As for the changes that are listed, I don't think the range nerf or base damage nerf are uncalled for. However, having to equip rigs or implants to make your weapons hit in class is not appropriate (for ANY weapon system).

A few pages before I pointed out how HML in a Drake have less damage than medium long range turrets, if all ships fit 2 damage mods.

The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"

As you might have noticed, Eve is not and will not get balanced around PvE. While I do agree that this aspect sucks a bit, we all have to live with it. No one ever objected to the fact the Drake outclasses the other 3 BC in l4s and is also way in front in l3s. Although in l3s those other 3 tier 2s will do a good job too. But PvE is just not a reason for CCP to balance things. Adapt or die. (which you should btw anyway in regards of the so OP Drake/HML - crosstrain, if you feel its OP. Oh, and its so easy and fast to get all those missile skills, right?)

How many Gallente ships have ZERO turret hardpoints -- relying upon Drones for 100% of their offense?

What percentage of ships, all races, field at least some drones?

The Minmatar signature weapons is Projectiles
The Amarr Signature weapon is Lasers
The Caldari Signature weapon is Missiles
The Gallente signature weapon is Hybrids

Obviously there is some small amount of cross over, and every race fields some secondary weapons -- including some hulls devoted exclusively to these secondary weapons. But just as every race has a signature EWAR, they all have a signature weapon.

If you meet a Drake you know what you can expect.

The Curse is most probably not a good hard counter to a Drake then. Use your EFT Curse (the guy with no combat record, remember?) on some other ships.

But this "missiles are better in everything" stuff is just ridiculous bullshit. Thanks for again proving you are a troll, and nothing but a troll.

And with this path, they start asking you to show a missile ship able to blap a frigate. This only argument make them deserve all OPness in the world.

All at once wont happen - might be able to eft-up the top two though. What DPS (post change) is the (I assume it is a drake) doing at 100km?

Does rather highlight my belief it's an ammo thing though.

It is a ferox I have in mind though

Who is wrong?

To be honest, you are missing the sensor booster for this range, though you can easily drop a hardener ; tank is hardly needed at these ranges, as is the warp disruptor BTW.

What kind of DPS and is that post changes? It doesnt look like it with the range changes to HML though I may be wrong.

I suspect as the range closes, the ferox DPS (on EFT) will rise above the drakes. Which is what I'm saying about the ammo, its too strong at higher distances and falls away at the closer range options.

If you don't like the idea I'm hardly offended, but these debates will rage until the end of time as long as a system has uniform damage application from 0 to 3 figure ranges.

Speaking of something is "out of line" and "needs balance" ...

Is this your reply to the way out of line presence of Projectiles in eve-kill?

Projectiles are way out of line, all numbers show this. Do you really object to this fact? :) Please do :)

It still won't have enough drones

Suffice it to say that I am actually considering changing my training plans to improve my missile skills -- something that would have been unthinkable to me just a month ago.

The Rokh was not really hot until hybrids have been buffed. It is decent now, but the crosstrain issues with missiles to turrets have been mentioned often enough now that even you should have understood this problem.

I think what Noemi was getting at is that Caldari lacks good missile boats, thus if you went missile skills first (and later found out how few viable options you have), and tried to get into gunnery, its a long and painful process. On the other hand, if you started with hybrids/projectiles/lasers then you can far more easily cross train among the 3 turret classes and honestly, I can't think of a role that a gunboat can't do just as well or more often than not, better than a missile boat in our current environment. So if you started with turrets and cross-trained into missiles....I'm sorry but you're doing it wrong.

All correct what you said here. Actually I dont wonder Jorma doesnt know this, because he seems to be an EFT-only warrior ..

I'm pretty sure nobody said the Zealot is a fail ship..... Also, I'm sure there are sniper zealot fits but the more popular AB HAC fits are Pulse fit.

It also lost it's close range role when the harbinger was introduced and the tank role when the Legion was introduced...

I think hes referring to when I mentioned that Zealots are usually fit with Pulses/AB/Armor for fleets with 40km range, although you specifically mentioned close-range. Either Jorma doesn't have very good reading comprehension or we're completely missing what hes saying, probably the former =/

But fixing some not working stuff has nothing to do with power creep.

It depends what you do when you buff. What you describe sounds like power creep. And it sounds like a very bad job in balancing too.

Now go back to playing EFT. Thanks.

EVEHQ ! lol it doesn't matter the what program you use.
The EFT warrior thing is along the lines of saying you are nothing but a spreadsheet junkie or theorycrafer take your pick
and you do not really know how it all works out in game in a live scenario.

You don't see Minm and projectiles having to cross train just so they are not worthless.

Even now currently on TQ, turret ships are way better then missiles, after the missile nerf, missiles will become totally obsolete.

.. and terrible application of this short range damage too .. :)

Turrets can't be smartbombed or destroyed with defenders.

And projectiles also can't be neuted.

Because curse uses missiles...

This is also a lie, the cane can easily drop a curse, stop making things up that you've obviously never experienced before. Having killed curses by myself in a Cane I can tell you that you are infact wrong.

I understand very well. And I said if you once and for all stay away from here as soon as I post with my alt I might really be tempted to do it. You said you wont, so wont I :) and honestly, I could care less about what *you* believe. You can believe in what you want. There are enough people here who seem to feel like I might have a point in what I am posting about and who dont think I have no credibility.

I will not continue this. Just not worth the time.

You can outrun/outrange missiles too. And you can outrun a missile in air, you never can do that with turrets.

Or just the well its your fault for training missiles you should have know they were garbage but yet some how overpowered and needed to be nerfed so cross train projectiles.

Another thing about resistances: most Caldari missile ships are bonused on kinetic damage, its an easy way to hardcounter their DPS by fitting kinetic resistance. Because with everything else they just deal 25% less (which is not impressive at all ..), This is something one cant do vs. Projectiles, and only partly vs Hybrids and Lasers, although both of them have other issues. The fact you dont see an overuse of kin-resi modules shows pretty well how people are either 1) not able to adapt to a situation or 2) this situation is in fact not there.

Missiles as a medium-long range weapon system have always sucked as a weapon system in PVP due to time-to-target and were barely tolerable in PVE only due to their few advantages of all damage types and long range. With these changes combined with the other upcoming changes there will be NO medium-long range PVP engagements at all with missile ships.

Heavy Missiles and above are also useless against frigates. With the upcoming PVE-blast-drones changes that is yet another reason to ditch all missile ships for turret ships. At least my medium/large guns can blow an incoming frigate away (or from my buddy) if our drones get blown away.

I'm a little confused, do the people who are vehemently supporting the changes like Lili and gang think that other medium LR turrets are crap? It seems so from the posts I've read though obviously I haven't read all of them.

well i got a thought if these changes go through lets all change to winmatar ships so they will by the logic of this thread be popular and also op so they get a heavy nerf then we change back to caldari ships when there actualy half decent again

Wow is your reading ability really that bad? Just don't bother replying to my posts, it's a waste of both your time and especially mine.

So which weapon systems have a wider range of selectable damage types?

The cane is getting a fitting nerf while at the same time having the fitting costs of arty being reduced.

This will allow them to fit for range and be able to out range a drake with no issues.


A fitting nerf is easy to counter. All you have to do is swap out some modules.


Dealing with a dps nerf on a ship that already didn't have that much dps is something else.

Now, a range nerf that puts it at the lowest range of all bc's isn't so easy to counter.

although i agree thats stupid range the nerf t2's are recieving is still way over the top 80 - 90 km should suffice for any criuser or bc max even after boosters ect however how you get it to hit at that range dont quite add up but that not the point im running with your figures here (even though i think there a bit dodgy).

t2 heavy furry should still have a base of around 45k not a max after skills and ship bonuses ect.

heavy missles are long range ammo not short hams are short range ecept it seams jav witch either out performs heavy in range or somes out about 2km under them.

but lets put it this way 720s with long range ammo 54 optimal and minmitar generaly play in fall of.
250 with long range ammo 97 km
and 54k for armarr

so tbh t2s being under 40k or just under 40k is totaly and unterly wrong.

rage and fury is hi dmg but yet cannot lay full dmg on stationary ships of there size.

presicion and jav for small fast targets yet the presicion dosent have the range to gaurantee a hit on said ships.

I imagine because it has to fly to its target and flying to a 'ceptor orbiting at silly-km/s is going to require to flying for a decent duration, even it its only going ~20km out as the crow flies.

Unless I misread it/have outdated information there's a good chance you'll be better off using HAMS with range rigs in almost all circumstances More damage, better able to hit small targets. Less range but bleh, not much less than precision HM. HAM drake has been turned into a (bigger) demon. Hell rage HAMs will even hit cruisers better than vanilla HMLs

and no anything above about 170 for any weapon after mods ect is stupid but as you have pointed out there the raven int the biggest problem look at the armarr ship 230 optimal with a further 41 km giving a massive 271 km fireing range and similar dmg to the raven

How do tachs fare at 5km ranges?

ive spent nearly 2 year training only call and missle specilising in long range bombardment guess im fecked.

oh i know how fallof works and try getting missles and targeting to 250 also try catching that armarr snipper ship in a caldari ship especialy after the changes witch make caldari ships the slowest and heaviest of all the ships in nearly every catagory.

If someone thinks the Raven is good then please train for one and use it in PvP. But let me know before where I can find you.

if your gonna give numbers with implants for one ship give them with implants for all other ships

That being said, that's not a very good fit for that ship, I'll agree.

I see Bouh and that other pilot who does not exist are still hanging with the Cruise Raven. Again I tell you, both of you .. train for one if you didnt do so already, buy one, hop into it and go for PvP with it.